Powder Mountain Access Meeting

[Marty Lowe]

The stoke is still alive Marty! Especially after seeing all the comments. To answer some of your questions even though it distracts from the overall objective here, I have spoken with Auggie off and on about Powder Mountain this last year. With so many questions unresolved last spring, I tried to initiate something from a different angle (I was supprised that everyone thought it was a done deal when Powder Mountain still had hurtles to clear). I’ve been talking with Kent Mathews operations manager, guy farther up the chain of command than Rod. Auggie and I are trying to accomplish the same thing just at different angles with different people. No I’m not pissed off that my stoke clouds may be clouding my judgment. Happens all the time, maybe that’s why I got married (joke). My last unintentional kite loop might have rattled a screw loose too. Yes, I have kited at Powder Mountain three times during my intro to kiting (one reason why I proposed that Ryan be there having kited there as much as anyone). I have backcountry skied just about every aspect around James Peak and the some slopes off the three areas that are good for kiting and have skied there since ‘89. Insignificant. I offered Kent our help when he was trying to resolve the insurance issues. He resolved the issues with his current policy. Also offered our help with these current issues and he accepted.

I will go to this meeting since I arranged the damn thing. Auggie will be the lead guy for good reason. I think auggie has some more questions for Rod this weekend, and I will continue to talk to Kent based on their intent and needs so that we are prepared and can answer some of the questions asked in this forum and be prepared for their questions. It doesn’t all have to come together here, but it’ll be a good start.

-Marty

[Augie]

Most of what Jake previously says makes sense. However access is not yet a problem. We can ride there now but also want to continue. We probably don't need to bring up all of the negative things like helicopter proximity, who patrols it and when we have to leave the resort. However the snowmobile issue is actually in our favor and we can't ignore the insurance topic since this is what shut us down temporarily last year. The snowmobile issue has been a problem for years. Snowmobilers use that area but when they occasionaly drop into the resort from over there it gets the management upset. They are gone by the time we get there, skiers can't catch them, and Powder Mountain snowmobiles are not hot rods like most of the snowmobilers are riding. They have been looking for a way to keep the snowmobilers away and designating the area for our use fits well. The kite pass has to be addressed but that is still a business decision and I may not be able to influence that a whole lot. I do know that the punch pass is preferred by most and I will continue to press in that direction. The kite sales and lessons are simply there as potential ways to make money. I have been told several times that the heart of the matter is that Powder Mountain wants the kiting but just wants to know how they can make money from the sport.

Also, to answer Mike M's post-Powder Mountain is not surrounded by Forest Service land. It is private property. That also made it easy to cut those trees out of the way a few weeks back.

By the way, as stated earlier This is really low-key and they just want an overview of what kiting is about and don't want commercial interests at the meeting. Sorry Jake, but it will just be Les and me at the meeting. If issues come up that I can't answer I will just get back to them.

I will edit the paper and repost it later today.

[Augie]

HERE IS THE NEWLY EDITED VERSION



SNOWKITING AT POWDER MOUNTAIN

• What is snowkiting? Only 7-8 years old and growing fast

• Benefits to Powder Mountain-Ways to Produce Capital

• More skier visits-family, friends accompanying kiters are intangible but realistic. If the wind dies, kiters can go skiing
• Attracts non-kiters -as many as 25 people watching at times
• Free publicity-photo shoots, videos, internet, magazine articles
• Unique opportunity-most ski areas don’t have the terrain/ most kite areas don’t have lodge facilities. Also, fairly windy at Hidden Lake.
• Kite festivals-Skyline Drive in Fairview Utah had 150 kiters last year plus spectators. Event televised on all 4 local TV stations plus newspapers. Professional riders from around the world attended
• Kite lessons-expensive- $150-$200 for 3-4 hours. Turn key operation possible.
• Kite sales-new kites cost $700-$1000
• Terrain Park- lots of interest. Sell banner advertising on ramps.
• Punch Pass? Ideal for the kiters when the wind dies and access in and out of area. Lots of out of state interest.
• Designated kite area will be off limits to snowmobiles
• Closer drive for most local kiters than Skyline
• Concerns
• Insurance-Additional cost? Liabilities? Kiter Waiver Form
• Kite Pass-What type? If it is a punch pass, can it be converted to day pass? Kite unique hazards should be printed on pass

• Other Issues
• Lodge being built in Fairview for kiters
• Out of state businesses already are making money here with tour packages and lessons at Fairview
• Kiters don’t have to pay to kite other places and can carve turns on frozen reservoirs or flat fields

[Marty Lowe]

Good Job Augie..



Is there a possibility in the future,
of paying for "cat rides" similar to Lightning Ridge Snowcat, now in place,
and even "helicopter rides" to other windy areas?
Talking to the helicopter guys last year,
they expressed some interest in
"one ride out, one ride back at end of day" scenerio.
This could be another revenue generator.

Not sure I would do it,
but it may get interest from out of towners, Magazines, etc.


-Marty

[Augie]

I am very sure that the helicopter guys would do that. I know the owners very well. There is an amazing amount and variety of terrain on Monte Cristo, and since the road doesn't get plowed past Ant Flat that leaves lots of high elevation stuff.
I think a snowcat ride over to Flattop mountain could work in the future. Right now I don't think we could pay for the gas to justify it.

[Marty Lowe]

There is already some interest on

kiteforum.com

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... highlight=

-Marty

[lesvierra]

I like it Auggie. Here are my comments inserted into your list.

SNOWKITING AT POWDER MOUNTAIN
>>Augie-Id break this into some sections

>>1. What is snowkiting?
• What is snowkiting? Only 7-8 years old and growing fast
>> how it has grown, everywhere, eastcoast, Midwest, and how utah >>could be the most desirable place to kite because of the famous snow >>and high elevation wind exposure. Did you decide on a video or not. >>I like the 3 minute ozone video for ’06. impressive. You can tell them >>about it, but until you see a pro do this, you wont believe it. You could >>play on their tv, or my laptop.

>>2. SAFETY. I would address safety because this is one of their concerns. I think this would be a good place to do this. Ie. Using your kite for the demo. There is a possibility for people to get hurt snowkiting, but like climbing or kayaking, there are ways to minimize the risk. Maybe explain how wind speed affects size of kite used for given conditions.

>>3. Benefits to Powder Mountain. Remember, we can tell them why we >>think they should allow snowkiting and how we think they can benefit >>from snowkiting until we are blue in the face, but if we are not >>addressing their questions, concerns, needs, it will go in one ear and >>out the other. During or after the presentation, lets make sure we or >>you know what the OWNERS/Managers have in mind for the future and >>see if we can fit this in to their framework for their benefit. I have >>stated this before, improvements at Powder Mountain shown in Jack >>Johnsons master plan (this includes new lifts, condo’s, and individual >>residential units) have been preliminarily approved by Cache County. >>Weber County has yet to approve the plans in their county. Powder >>Mountain is working on Webers approval. This may be Powder >>Mountain’s focus going into the future. Snowkiting could easily fit into >>a marketing plan. However, when compared to real estate, which >>Powder Mountain has lots of and they plan to take advantage of, >>snowkiting lessons and kite sales revenues may not turn a head. >>However, one more reason to come to Powder Mountain will.
• Benefits to Powder Mountain-Ways to Produce Capital

• More skier visits-family, friends accompanying kiters are intangible but realistic. If the wind dies, kiters can go skiing
• Attracts non-kiters -as many as 25 people watching at times
• Free publicity-photo shoots, videos, internet, magazine articles
• Unique opportunity-most ski areas don’t have the terrain/ most kite areas don’t have lodge facilities. Also, fairly windy at Hidden Lake.
• Kite festivals-Skyline Drive in Fairview Utah had 150 kiters last year plus spectators. Event televised on all 4 local TV stations plus newspapers. Professional riders from around the world attended
• Kite lessons-expensive- $150-$200 for 3-4 hours. Turn key operation possible.
• Kite sales-new kites cost $700-$1000
• Terrain Park- lots of interest. Sell banner advertising on ramps.
• Punch Pass? Ideal for the kiters when the wind dies and access in and out of area. Lots of out of state interest.
• Designated kite area will be off limits to snowmobiles
• Closer drive for most local kiters than Skyline
• Concerns
• Insurance-Additional cost? Liabilities? Kiter Waiver Form
• Kite Pass-What type? If it is a punch pass, can it be converted to day pass? Kite unique hazards should be printed on pass

>>4. I would address the punch pass or lift ticket thing here. I would get >>a feel of what they think is feasible and ask what their concerns are. >>Then address with ideas brought up in this forum.

• Other Issues
• Lodge being built in Fairview for kiters
• Out of state businesses already are making money here with tour packages and lessons at Fairview
• Kiters don’t have to pay to kite other places and can carve turns on frozen reservoirs or flat fields

>>before we/you leave, make sure we/you have affectively addressed >>their concerns and leave an open dialog with owners/managers for >>future meetings. Also query for additional concerns that may not have been addressed for next time.

[lesvierra]

I spoke with Kent again today to ask some more questions about what he thought would be a suitable presentation and how he thought we could help powder mountain. Again, he likes the following outline

1. Snowkiting (intro about snowkiting)
2. Safety
3. Benefits to Powder Mountain
4. Ticketing.

Auggie, I think you can address these in many different ways, let me know, I can put some power point slides (paper for handouts) together. For clarity though, I suggest you put your sheet into these categories. He’s not to concerned about a time limit. He would not be affended if we took an hour of their time. Short presentation and then discussion.

Kent has already mentioned the meeting to his staff and I think Auggie is very keyed in to the issues that need to be discussed. Kent stated that hopefully a minimum of two of his supervisors/owners will attend.

Bottom line, Auggie is right on, make money. If they are spending more money on snowkiting than they are receiving, it is probably not going to be worth there effort. Again Auggie is right on, they are concerned with the "here and now" and not what may or may not happen in the future with their partners that are trying to make the masterplan happen.

2nd, they want to evolve with what the industry wants. Kent compared snow kiting to snowboarding 20 years ago. He would have laughed if someone came to him with and idea of snowboard parks, rails, half pipes, etc. Now it is a part of business. Like snowboarding, we are at the beginning of making it happen. Demand, profitability, insurance, the "how", it all has to be worked out and thats what this meeting if for and hopefully meetings to follow.

I mentioned that the “kiting community” has appointed Auggie as their representative. He is good with that. He does want to be able to use snowkiting community as a resource for objective feedback and ideas. I still think that two to three people attending this meeting is a good idea, but that can happen at a latter time if warranted.

I think with your comments and Auggies direction, we will kick this off in the right direction. After that, its just a matter working out the kinks.

[Jacob Buzianis]

LES,

The Safety Part, just so you know that snowkitiing is a lot safer then kiteboarding. Snowkiting, you don't have to use the same size kite as you would go kiteboarding. Snowkiting, we would use smaller size kite. The new technology for kiting has been a lot safer to use now then before. For example, the New Bow kites, quick release system, etc. Another thing, Powder Mountain has the softest snow on earth. I have done 50 ft drops and land straight down with no floating or anything to pull me up, after the mistake I made doing tricks. Worst case scenerio, lines hit someone is pretty harmless since everyone is wearing thick coats and pants. I have a had lines hit me in all directions, full power strenght lines during the competition warm up. It didn't even cut me or touch my skin, just push me and the kite crash. I might be missing something out that might has some danger or more safer. Jacob Buzianis[/i]

[lesvierra]

I agree Jake, size, bows, foils, release systems, all getting better and safer. I think Auggie will go over this. I’ll leave it up to auggie on the 50’ falls and misdirected kite lines, although I never thought about that. By the way, a quote from my wife (professional sells person) in bed last night “bring Jake, he’s cute, I’m telling you, sex sells”.

Another thought, assuming Powder Mountain wants to go down the road of promoting kiting this year. Would they get help from Ozone, Bestkiteboarding, Slingshot, or from any of the other kite companies or commercial outfitters? Maybe one or two demo days this winter where people can stop by at the top of the puma lift to fly a trainer and watch some of you guys fly. I think with some advertising, this would give an indicator of general interest in kiting plus a good turn out could indicate an increase in ticket sells because of kiting.

Just to point out the readily available resource, and some of you know this, Diamond Peak (local ski and bike shop) has a shop up at Powder Mountain with an employee Nate, fellow snowkiter. Diamond Peak is excited to see what happens here. If it looks good, they would like to jump in on product sells.

[Augie]

This should be the final version. However, last minute changes can be made if we forgot anything. I want to thank everyone for the advice and comments. I tried to incorporate all of the issues into the paper. If I didn't put all of the points into the paper it just means we either shouldn't address it at this time (my opinion) or it isn't something that Powder Mountain management cares about right now. I hope everyone understands. I also want to thank everyone for the vote of confidence and the honor of representing the kite community. When will the snow start? I need to snowkite. I will post a message on Tuesday on how the meeting went.

SNOWKITING AT POWDER MOUNTAIN

• What is snowkiting? Only 7-8 years old and growing fast. Utah already is world renowned for kiteskiing.

• Safety systems- styles vary but all kites have at least 3 ways to depower. Landings are smooth and soft. Wind speed determines kite size.

• Benefits to Powder Mountain-Ways to Produce Capital

• More skier visits-family, friends accompanying kiters are intangible but realistic. If the wind dies, kiters can go skiing
• Attracts non-kiters -as many as 25 people watching at times
• Free publicity-photo shoots, videos, internet, magazine articles
• Unique opportunity-most ski areas don’t have the terrain/ most kite areas don’t have lodge facilities. Also, fairly windy at Hidden Lake.
• Kite festivals-Skyline Drive in Fairview Utah had 150 kiters last year plus spectators. Event televised on all 4 local TV stations plus newspapers. Professional riders from around the world attended
• Kite lessons-expensive- $150-$200 for 3-4 hours. Turn key operation possible
• Kite sales-new kites cost $700-$1000
• Terrain Park- lots of interest. Sell banner advertising on ramps
• Designated kite area will be off limits to snowmobiles
• Closer drive for most local kiters than Skyline
• Concerns
• Insurance-Additional cost? Liabilities? Kiter Waiver Form
• Kite Pass-What type? If it is a punch pass, can it be converted to day pass? Kite unique hazards should be printed on pass
• Punch Pass? Ideal for the kiters when the wind dies and access in and out of area. Lots of out of state interest


• Other Issues
• Lodge being built in Fairview for kiters
• Out of state businesses already are making money here with tour packages and lessons at Fairview
• Kiters don’t have to pay to kite other places and can carve turns on frozen reservoirs or flat fields
• Future expansion will open up new areas

Questions? Future meetings needed?

Parking lot demonstration.

[lesvierra]

Not sure how to go all the way back to do a quote so I will paraphrase what Kenny as said a couple of times. He agrees with sending 2 to 3 people, one as "trusted" liason, some one who knows the business, and a scribe. I'll jump on scribe with everyting I've got. But it would be nice to have some one who knows the business well to answer questions. Maybe not Jake at Rods request for what ever reason, anyone else worth sending? Again first meeting, I would think there will be more to come for representation.

Quote from Ryan- He has a buddy they would help build a terrain park at Powder Mountain and has a cat. I would like to hear more on this. Maybe a good opportunity, or source of info.

Another Quote from Kenny, "be prepared". A thought on that, we can tell powder mountain how kiting can benefit them, its obviously will benefit us, but what if they ask us well, show me how. Like Auggie said, Powder Mountain is partially on board with the idea and want to allow it, but show me the money.

What is a plan that Powder Mountain can run with? Maybe they'll like the turnkey idea, maybe they will want to do it in house. Regardless, if it is really going to be a revenue maker, I think there will need to be lessons availabe to help the sport grow at PM. If they ask, it would be good to be able to advise on instructor certification programs like PASA or ways to do this in house or turnkey, pros, cons.

A bulletin board with information about kiting, how to start (trainer, video, lesson) where to go for products, Powder Mountain Rules located at the top of the puma.

Also, for Auggie's handout. I would like to attach some information for reference and support. Nothing that needs to be gone over during the meeting, but would be there in case and can be used by the staff later.
Attachments might inlude:
1. Windzups website (great info)
2. Best Kiteboarding's website (great info, shows alot of marketing efforts towards snowkiting)
3. Slingshot ws (marketing snowkiting)
4. cuts from commercial groups that are giving lessons at Skyline and are bringing clients from out of state.
5. cuts from commercial groups that are providing instruction in cali, colorado, and if I can find else where in the country with rates.

any comments?

[Poniboi]

Sounds good everyone working on this project "props out to you". Only been once to PM it was great. In my limited experience with dealing with another Utah Ski resort up north, trying to get Paragliding Tandems offered through the resort. Like other North American resorts. The insurance was the first issue we had resolved, then we though it would be the obvious step to give the resort the understanding of the sport and the buisness aspects and potential. Wrong, the resort really was just interested, in if and what the potential if any existed for the site. So with that being said my only input would to concentrate on getting people riding at PM, the rest will follow. I am sure that someone at PM will be researching the potential for the buisness end of things. Let the site provide the riding and its potential will follow. Any way cant wait to be riding at PM. thanks everyone for all the hard work and effort. Heeerrreee comes the Snow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Augie]

I have said it earlier- Pow Mow doesn't want ANY commercial interests at the meeting. I personally know both Jake and Brian and they are both great guys but we have to abide by Pow Mow's decision. Poniboi has it right also-Just get them to buy in fully now. Anyone can offer lessons if they want, but I am sure that Pow Mow will think about kite lessons in exactly the way way that they view ski/snowboard lessons. They own the resort and instructors and ski school. Why would they look at this differently?

[Poniboi]

One point i forgot to make is that PM will be setting the mold for others "resorts to follow. This is one point to push the idea that they will be one of the only resorts to offer a pass for rideable terrain. " One if not the ONLY ONE". Did I mention the Snow is almost here.