Where to Ride 6/30

[Chris Hedquist]

I think you all need to CHILL OUT. I don't think he meant to be harsh on Craig, but rather harsh on us when we make bad judgement calls. I don't see any reference connecting Craig's forecasts to specific accidents. Accidents happen as we all know. Our job is to prevent the preventable ones. Yes, our minds get clouded because of the adrenaline and yes we sometimes make bad judgement calls. If you are an expert at the weather then don't worry about it. Craig's forecasts help me to get a bearing on the weather, but as we all know it can be rather unpredictable even for the best.
Steve has been a tremendous help to myself and several others in the sport including making weather calls. I think what he meant is that we all should take a little time to learn about the weather so our judgement calls are better and we prevent future accidents to the best of our ability including equipment, helmets, weather and the help of one another.
The wind riders community has been so nice and helpful to me in this sport. It's a shame to see some exchange such hostile and disrespectful remarks to one another.

Chris Hedquist

[Kevin Simmons]

Folks, please lets learn a bit about weather. I have read with horror as "craig" has predicted wind and put suggestions on where to ride and at what time of day. Fist off I will keep my big mouth shut about wind surfing, and just speak to the kiters.

DON'T kite in Utah mid day, DO Learn about weather. God, have we not learned!!!! The days that this guy is saying to go to Rush around 1 have been just nuts. 1 holly shit, 1 o'clock in utah on hot days is insaine 99% of the time if the wind is blowing.

We teach basic weather every day of the week and offer great video's and books on weather. Please take a moment to learn about it. I was out and blown off the water 2 days this week prior to 11:00 am. Anyone going after 11 would be risking a lot.

Am I being harsh on Craig.... hell yes. Do I have good reason Hell yes.

As a full time paragliding instructor and owner of a kite shop, we just shake our head at some of the needless accidents.

Last example, Tuesday he said to be at rush for gusty wind rides for kite surfing. Shit, it was hailing at our shop then and a gust front that measured 49 MPH rolled through. This is not rocket science, if they say "afternoon thurnder storms" Go put put golfing indoors.

Steve Mayer
the guy that has had too many friends hurt/killed/paralized because of bad weather decisions.

My next goal in life (if I don't go to the dark side first) is to learn to paraglide. I know where I will NOT go for instructions.

Steve, you're smoking some strong stuff if you think there is a relationship between Craig's forecasts and accidents. I bet you think it's the weatherman's fault when a golfer gets killed playing in a thunderstorm or when a backcountry skier gets caught in an avalance. As your post states, accidents happen "...because of bad weather decisions" and NOT because of forecasts.

Craig, you rock! You have saved me countless hours and money. I feel I should be paying you for your forecasts.

--Kevin.

[walt]

Wow!

There are some really angry people here.

I would like to start by saying that I dont know shit about Kiteboarding. This is my first season.

I would like to say that I know the air. I am intimately familair with it. I have flown hanggliders for 20 years in every condition imaginable. I estimate my airtime at over 3,000 hours of experience. I have had my ass slam dunked because of my BIG EGO. I have had people die in my arms and lost many friends and mentors because of their egos. So I beleive that i can discuss micrometeorology with the best of them.

Steve stated that he was talking to the kiters only.

He simply stated that in the summer dont go out to rush at 1:00. That is it. I am a new kiter and I have several new kite buddies. And I have told them the same thing. A new guy will not know this.

A NEW GUY WILL NOT KNOW THIS

By the way... the sport from what i have seen has a lot of new guys


I have cheated death quite a few times while flying in crazy mid summer conditions getting in over my head cuz of the rush. How many of you have done it kiteboarding? I have heard several stories already of peoples near misses.

Steve probably went a little too far in his chioce of words. He is an exceptional pilot who knows a lot about micrometeorology. He simply does not want to see any more unnecessary deaths...and truly has every ones best interests at heart.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mitch my second time at rush lake. He was truly an ambassador of the sport. He got me incredibly fired up. I can tell from the outpouring from the comminity that he will be deeply missed. Lets learn from his mistake. Because if we dont history will repeat itself.

Sincerly,
Walt Harrison

[Marty Lowe]

Walt,
Discussions about the weather are very important.
Open a thread about weather and every will read it.

Steve's post was a reply to Craigs post.
pointing fingers
and insulting most that read it.

I would encourage your posts with your wind knowledge.

-Marty

[Poniboi]

Forecasts are forecasts some good some bad, on sight micro meteorology is what it is changeing minute to minute everyone should educate themselves and use good judgement. Useing a little of their own forecast knowledge. And remember learning anything from tragedies such as this one, Always keep your head up be aware of enviroments, always keeping an eye over your shoulder for yourself and the next guy.

New to the water.

[jason morton]

i know i feel a little grumpy and sour at the looming summer dulrums. i wish i was in the delta with jake. pray for wind. time to go to the hood. luv you all. at least big carl c isn't giving us forcasts. we'd be at the crick everyday.

[Emmanuel Pons]

All I learned of this thread is if you want to have a good time, drink beer and go even even in the worst conditions stick to windsurfing...

I guess I did the right choice.. I don't have to worry about going out in in meanest gustiest conditions, I don't have to worry about taking a sail twice the size I really should be on...

I don't like to have to over analyse everything before I get in the water, I just want a board short, no helmet, no "crash" vest, just the smell of the breeze with the spray from the water raging under hawling winds...

Yeah... I'll definitely stick to windsurfing.. All that stuff is supposed to be fun. I can go as stupid as want want and still be safe. Good stuff.

[DaneHeld]

Graig ,,, Thanks for your forcast , Keep it up...
Dane

[stevemayer]

Wow, looks like I screwed up again. I let my emotions take over without thinking it through. I owe a huge apology to Craig and a further explanation to the readers of this forum. Please take a moment to read this entire post as I will first write what I SHOULD have written, then I will once again be an ass and say what I really want to say. I promise to everyone this will be my 3Rd and LAST post ever to this forum, I need to learn to keep my hands from typing.

Craig, what I should have written is this:

Kite surfers: (wind surfers can handle a totally different set of wind conditions). We are now in mid summer, high desert kiting conditions. Please be sure to double check local weather local forecasts prior to making the decision to go kiting for the day. Conditions can change rapidly and sometimes one persons predictions might not hold true for a given weather pattern. This may seem very oblivious to most recreational athletes, but last week I was devastated to hear about the 3ed major accident where I knew the kite rider. In each of these three events there was one underlying theme- “chance of afternoon thunderstorms”. I am not saying anything except that an interesting trend in most if not all significant kite skiing/surfing accidents is that the weather is 1. gusty, 2. unstable or 3. cells are present in the area, both upwind and down wind.
Please take some time to learn about weather and forecasting skills. I run the nations largest paragliding school. One skill that must be taught and learned is how to predict bad weather. Most if not all of the paragliding accidents in the USA are weather related. Now that I am getting more into kite surfing (both personal and business related) I see a similar parallel and would like to simply educate kiters a bit.
A little background on me. I was the first if not one of the first kiters in Utah. I started very early in the sport out in Maui and my brother is a “pro” kite surfer/wind surfer out there. I backed way off kiting after seeing many many accidents (some personal). I feel this is an extremely dangerous sport due simply to the lack of proper training, not just on “how to” but “when to”. Out in Maui my brother has finally taught me, “you only kite in PERFECT wind, nothing strong, nothing gusty or you or someone you know will get hurt”. I am the Regional director for the United States Hang Gliding Association and as an elected official, I am responsible for accident reporting and investigation for the 5 state area. This is an honor and I am happy to be the “safety” guy, as I teach one of the most statistically dangerous activities on the planet.
This year with all the kite shops in SLC going out of business, we stepped up our kite department and with a staff of avid kite surfers, we started selling a lot more gear to the locals at great prices, kiting is a hobby for us, we make our living paragliding, so what ever we can do to help spread the sport the better (anyone that has bought gear here knows we don’t mark it up much if not at all). So back to my story. This year I introduced 3 of my very close friend to kite surfing. We all competed for the USA and have traveled the world together. 2 of these guys you may see in the next Olympics. Anyway, they are naturals at the sport. The hard part for me, there concerned mentor, is teaching them when to go out riding. They are the ones I am speaking to in my post. Also the 2 to 3 random phone calls a day we get from people I don’t know asking “is today a good day to kite surf”. In the past, I knew there was someone posting “wind predictions” so I told people to go to the club forum WITHOUT ME EVER GOING TO IT AND LOOKING. Again, as a Kite shop we get people EVERY day asking “should I go. This was a huge mistake on my part, I was not sure what was being posted.


OK, THAT IS WHAT I SHOULD HAVE POSTED. I THINK IT WOULD HAVE SLID RIGHT BY, I WOULD HAVE SAID MY PEACE AND I WOULDN’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT YOU GUYS SLASHING MY TIRES.

NOW HERE IS WHERE I WILL GET MYSELF IN TROUBLE ONCE AGAIN, BUT I WANT TO POST SOME PERSONAL THOUGHTS AND RESPOND TO SOME OF THE POSTS ABOUT ME. AGAIN, THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST TO THE FORUM.

Ok, now what spurred my outlandish post was this. After the events of last week I went to the forum and saw some of the postings on when it was predicted to be good. They were off. I had friends and random people say, “the forum says……” and you are saying it may not be good who is right?. One of these times when someone said that exact thing to us it was HAILING OUTSIDE…. My god, I was shocked. I only went back a week or so but almost every day last week was predicted to be nasty weather, afternoon thunderstorms, lighting, hale, which all bring about severe gust fronts. I know my weather, we had over 10 students every day from all over the world here to paraglide and we could not get anything in because each day last week was just plain nasty. One friend called the day of the accident and was out at Rush and said, well it was “clear sky’s in SLC” NO IT WAS NOT. I got on their case for even being out there, tempted to kite.
I am sorry once again, it just hurts so much to know that even my friends who I think understand the dangers of bad weather even think about kite surfing as a sport on certain days. As an instructor, I am torn up inside knowing what may happen if the wrong decisions are made. As someone that has seen death, dismemberment, compound fractures, and the way it has effected the lives of everyone around them, I just hurts inside.
As a business owner, the only way I can stay in business is if people fly safe, kiting is not our business. If we never sell another kite, it will be fine (we are even re-thinking the ramifications of selling kite surfing gear since most get it at or near cost). If you think about what I intended to do in the first post, please believe my intentions were sincere and done simply to perhaps prevent one new kite surfer from being in the wrong sport at the wrong time. Please believe this is my sole intention. If I did not care or wanted to sell more kites, why would I have posted in the first place.
I love kite surfing, I want to see it grow and flourish in Utah and with every accident, not only does someone get hurt, it brings the spotlight on our sport. I can’t tell you how many phone calls from both media and random public I have received in the last 10 days. The straw that lead me to the post was a few days ago I was at rush for an early AM session with a friend. We were the only 2 on the water and got blown off by 10:00. we both actually had to punch out in separate gusts. By 11:00 when we got our gear back and packed it was insane conditions, 25 gusting to 40. That day on the forum, it said rush could be good around 1:00 pm. My goodness, I felt if anyone went anywhere around that time-frame it could result in a significant event and as a overly concerned safety guy, I had to say something… Where my lack of tact and knowledge lies is in the fact that I based my harsh comments on a select 10 day period of time for one select place, Rush Lake. I am sure from talking to others that Craig has exceptional skills and his heart/talent are in the right place. I know I would never take the time and energy (and flack from guys like me) to post “where the best flying will be today”, god knows pilots ask for it, we just tell them to educate themselves on learning when and were to be.
Ok, how to I get myself back in good graces? Fist let me offer anyone our cost on a great book on weather, “Understanding the Sky”. This is written for pilots but the same conditions apply to all wind sports. Cost is $16 ($24.95 retail) at our shop or go on line and find a copy. There is also a great video you can come by and watch or purchase called “Weather to Fly” same deal…
Please realize I love to kite and it should be a great, safe sport, all the above sounds scary, like you should never kite, we do a ton, (well I don’t, I am too busy teaching), but just learn a bit, miss a few sessions based on your gut and kite for many years. One last note… I am famous for saying, “look at that sky condition, there is a 1 in 100 chance anything bad can happen but why risk it. I know others are out flying, but you have to ask yourself, should I go out today?” Well in 13 years of teaching EVERY day, I have said that statement about 140 times. Guess what, on two occasions, when I said that statement and pilots decided not to fly and others were going out, shit hit the fan. I saved lives that day and will continue to preach safe flying and being on the conservative side. This is the only way I can sleep at night. I got stirred up and jumped the gun with my post.


NOW SOME POINTED REPLYS TO SOME OF THE THINGS FOLKS POSTED IN THE LAST 24 HOURS.

“makes me a little nervous to trust your judgment as an instructor of Paragliding. It's just a little reckless” OK, I HAVE NOT SEEN ‘WATCH OUT FOR THUNDERHEADS, BUT GOOD ON YOU CRAIG, AGAIN I APPOLOGIZE, I JUMPED THE GUN ON WHAT I WROTE IF YOU SAY CAUTIOUS THINGS LIKE THIS…. BUT A LITTLE RECKLESS IN MY JUDGEMENT, SORRY, JUST THE OPPOSITE.


“Craig is posting his forecast in morning, no one knows if there is going to deadly microburst wind 8 hours later. Give me a break.” SORRY, BUT MICROBURST CONDITIONS ARE PREDICTABLE AND CAN BE FORCASTED, IT TAKES SOME TIME BUT THE INFORMATION IS OUT THERE. AGAIN, PLEASE CHECK OUT THE BOOK ‘UNDERSTANDING THE SKY”

I vote to boot this clown off the UWA site, rather than a flame war, take away his posting rights. Real simple, get back to sailing. HERE HERE, I WILL NEVER POST AGAIN, BUT PLEASE, I SPOKE OUT OF LINE, BUT LOOK AT THE DEBATE AND RESPONSE IT HAS BROUGHT UP, IF I MAKE ONE PERSON LOOK INTO MORE INFORMATION ON WEATHER FORECASTING THEN THIS WAS A GOOD THING, THOUGH NOT DONE PROPERLY.

To suggest that Wind Riders are mindless zombies forced to follow whatever
They read on a Web page, offends us all. I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS SEEMS SILLY, PERHAPS IT IS JUST THE GUYS THAT CALL OUR SHOP (AN THE SAME GIRL SOME DAYS), BUT PEOPLE OFTEN SAY WHAT DO YOU MEAN TODAY MAY BE BAD, THE FORUM SAID….”, PERHAPS JUST A QUICK SHORT DISCLOSURE ON YOUR ‘SIGNITURE’ LINE ABOUT THIS IS A FORCAST BASED ON EVENTS IN THE EARLY MORNING, PLEASE DO YOUR OWN FORECASTING ON QUESTIONALBLE DAYS. ANOHTER OF MY LINE IN THE PARAGLIDING WORLD IS “IT IS EASY TO PREDICT GOOD FLYING DAYS AND EASY TO PREDICT THE NO GO DAYS, IT IS THE QUESTIONABLE DAYS THAT ARE HARD TO PREDICT AND THE ONES THAT CAN GET YOU.

“I have limited experience
Kite boarding. If that causes the Kite boarding community concern, I’d be happy to
post strictly about windsurf potential.” NO CRAIG PLEASE KEEP UP YOUR GOOD WORK, WHAT I AM READING IS YOU DO A GREAT JOB AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING, KEEP IT UP. I AM SURE YOU REAIZLE THAT MID SUMMER (I SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT) DAYS IN UTAH’S HIGH DESERT ARE VERY TURBULENT. KITES 90 FEET IN THE AIR REACT VERY DIFFERENT THAN OUR SAILS ON THE WATER. LAST WEEK I HAD A SESSION ON GLASS, TOTAL GLASS, NOT A RIPPLE OF WIND ON THE WATER. KITE 90 FEET UP WORKED GREAT, A WIND SURER WOULD HAVE TURNED AROUND AND GONE HOME. I HAVE 3 WINDSURF BOARDS AND MORE SAILES THAN I CARE TO COUNT. WE DO EACH IN SIMILAR CONDITONS SOME DAYS, BUT KITES ARE NOT RIGHT FOR MANY OF THEM. VERY SIMILAR TO THE DIFFERENCED IN HANG GLIDERS VS. PARAGLIDERS.

>"first of all I will keep my big mouth shut about the Wind Surfers and just speak to the kite boarders"

nice... Right away this guy chooses to alienate most of this forum and sell his business to us while beating up the only guy that gives any of us a chance to sail/kite and not get skunked WHAT? NOT SURE WHAT THIS MEANS, I SIMPLY MEANT I KNOW WINDSURFERS CAN HANDEL A LOT THAT A KITE SURFER CAN NOT. MANY WINDSURF TO KITESURF’S CROSS OVER RIDERS ARE SURPRISED BY THE POWER OF THE KITES ALOFT. I DO NOT CHOOSE ANYTHING, I REALLY AM A NICE GUY IF YOU KNOW ME .

SORRY FOR ALL THE MESS, I LOOK FORWARD TO MEETING CRAIG (I MAY HAVE ALREADY) AND APPOLOGIZING IN PERSON. BEERS (OR SODA’S) ON ME.

STEVE.

[Emmanuel Pons]

SORRY FOR ALL THE MESS, I LOOK FORWARD TO MEETING CRAIG (I MAY HAVE ALREADY) AND APPOLOGIZING IN PERSON. BEERS (OR SODA’S) ON ME

Better make it <good> beer

[Marty Lowe]

Steve,
Very admirable.
I would like you to keep posting.
I'm sure there are weather topics that should be discussed.
I incourage you, and/or Walt to start a new topic on the message board.,
concerning wind differences at ground level,
and 90 feet above the water.
Personally if there are black clouds and lightning around,
I'm chicken shit, and off the water.
I am amased at the amount of beginners/newbe's,
that come to Rush when there are high wind warnings out,
but never see them when there is a 15-25 forecast.

Let's keep the sefety of kiting in the forefront.


-Marty

[Craig Goudie]

Steve,

I don't think tire slashing is likely, if you come on strong, you're likely
going to get strong back though.

I left the thread open, because I'm always up for more information.

The motivation (safety) is a excellent one, and with all your experience,
you should be a great asset to the community here.

You're point about the good days, the bad days, and the QUESTIONABLE days
is an excellent one. I'll make certain that I post when I recognize a questionable day(that'd be one with a lot of vertical mixing or heat induced thunderheads), but it's always up to the reader to make his/her own judgment
call. Especially once on site.

Since I'm learning to Kite board (albeit very slowly), I'm very interested
in what's 90 feet up.

The beers are on me,

-Craig

[Poniboi]

Ahh I feel so much good energy. And all the talk about beer has me excited.

[Chris Hedquist]

Nice to see everyone happy. Thanks Craig for your forecasts...helps give me a bearing to how wrong my predictions really are. Thanks Steve for...well introducing me to kiteboarding, fueling my addiction, making me spend all my money (with no profit for you...you rock), teaching me the wind, and kicking my trash on the lake and on the slopes. See you guys at the lake.

Chris Hedquist

[db]

I have learned more about kiting safety in the last week than the previous 4 years. All this talk shows that we are getting something good from Mitchs accident. It seems Kiting has as much do with flying as it does with water sport. Thats the lesson learned for me. Craig, I feel your pain. for 14 years I had the pleasure of trying to predict wind at Milosport. We would receive dozens of calls every single day. We had people asking us what the wind would be doing at locations not just in Utah! We had lame cell phones, no internet and quirky expensive wind talkers that we had to install on the tops of telephone poles and physically reset after every t-storm . Good thing I was young and foolish! keep up the good work. Steve, we need your expert opinion. Keep posting. I will be down to purchase a weather book today. I sold gear at cost for years as well for the pure love of windsurfing.I feel your pain. Keep up the good work , we appreciate all of you!
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Very Happy