Where to top out a quiver?

[Leo Chan]

It takes less energy to get my freeride board going in the same wind, but the formula goes through the lulls and up and down wind like a power boat.

Some of the Utah sailors probably have not try the formula board yet. It is a relatively new board design. It is a lot of effort to get it going due to the large fin and heavier tail. Combining with the large rig and you usually can't beach start that darn thing in Utah lakes, you have a nightmare to get the sail up before the massive work needed to get it going. But once you get it going, it is like nothing else. The combination of large sail and large fin and wide board make it possible to have only a very small part of the board touching the water. You basically have a small aircraft under your feet. It is as close to flying an airplane as you will ever get, without being in one yourself. Also, if you're on a formula board, you can go very far from the launching point without the fear of not able to get back, due to the ability to go upwind. With a 10 meter sail and a formula board, you can sail in wind range between 8 to 15 mph, providing that you have the stomach and legs to deal with the chop and fin pressure at 15 mph.

[Sarah Ranes]

I also have a 9.0 and had a formula and 70 cm fin. I weigh in about 155, and can say that it got me moving in pretty light wind. I found that I planned up really easily, and could do some amazing upwind, and downwind angles, which can be a lot of fun, especially somewhere like DC. I learned a lot sailing that rig, and found I had to be in pretty good shape, to handle it when the wind kicked up. It was a bit scarry using that rig in Utah lake, since it's so shallow, and murkey. I've taken out my fin box there, hitting fish, and other stuff. I went from a 6.5 to the 9.0 which worked fine most of the time. But you really have your hands full when you are a mile or so upwind or down, and the wind really picks up, and you have to get back to your launch spot.

End of last summer I got a 75cm wide board, and a 7.2, which I usually end up using the most now. It does take just a bit more wind to get me planning, and I can not do the upwind angles, but I still have a great time, and tend to sail with my buddies more now. You can't really do just back and forth sailing with big gear, unless it stays really light wind, it's just not comfortable. Learning to go deep downwind, when the wind really kicks up is quite exciting, and quite a workout.

I highly recomend the carbon boom, since you will need all the stability you can get when the gusts come. I also went for the full on race sail for the stability with gusts, since at my weight and strength, I wanted all the help I could get.

The big sails are a bit more work, but you will plane earlier. When I got in shape for mine, I could even waterstart the 9.0. It's a completely different style of sailing, but can be fun. The big boys in the Gorge use 9.0 in 25 mph winds, it's just amazing to see. On one of the downwind Gorge races, I saw Bruce Peterson go flying by, I was on a 4.7 at Wells Island, powered, and found out later he was on a 9.8. Wow he was moving downwind fast.

Anyway if you are looking for a 9.1 I know of one in perfect shape for a great price, and rigs on a 490, please let me know. Enjoy the big ride.

[Shawn Henderson]

thanks Sarah, I am going to give it a try. From what I have learned here I think 9.0-9.5 will do the job on light wind that has enough umph to interest me. The bad news is It also looks like i should go carbon on the boom. the last thing a newb like me needs is a sail that increases its power profile on a gust and flattens depowering itself on a lull. 10-15 mph seems to be pretty gusty too from looking at wind meters. Although light wind sounds like its own type of fun. Hopefully I can build up my time on the water and develop some confidence. I will have to be sure to check the weather and avoid cloud bursts. I dont want to be halfway across utah lake when the wind kicks up. Have you ever done the "walk of shame" from upwind? if you are overpowered I read somewhere that its eisier to get off the water going upwind. I have had several walks after losing too much ground downwind. But being too far upwind... that would be something. that would be "the walk of honor" from my perspective. I will PM you about the sail.

[Sarah Ranes]

I have been lucky enough, to not have done the walk of shame from upwind. Which you are correct, is easy to do on big gear, especially formula gear. You get going and point it way upwind, and sit back and enjoy the ride. Getting back downwind is something you have to practice, and I will say a chicken strap helped me a ton. It helps to put you in a more comfortable position, for going deep downwind. What you have to remember, is that the more you go with the wind, the less pull you get from the sail. Meaning that if it's blowing 20 all the sudden, you don't want to try and go across the wind, you want to go more in the same direction. If you are going at least 10 mph downwind, then you only have 10 in your sail. It's very hard to go straight downwind, but you want to go the deepest angle that you can, and still keep planning, and have a bit of control. You just have to go for it, and try it to get the feel. It's quite exciting and scarrey at the same time. If you ever get to Hood River, take the time to go see the formula races on Sat. mornings. Then go try the course for yourself, and you will realize how difficult, it is to do, especially the speed that they do it. It's a whole different style of sailing.

[JimSouthwick]

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It is a lot of effort to get it going due to the large fin and heavier tail. Combining with the large rig and you usually can't beach start that darn thing in Utah lakes, you have a nightmare to get the sail up before the massive work needed to get it going.

So true, especially the part about beach starts. Especially for vertically challenged individuals like me. But I have stumbled upon a solution. Back in March, before DC was as full as it is now, weeds and floating debris were a big problem at Charleston Bridge. So I switched to my trusty 17" (43cm) Blade Weed, with the intention of switching back to a 62cm Formula fin once the weed problem abated. Well, the weeds are mostly gone, but I'm still using the Blade Weed. I'm probably loosing a little bit of efficiency and upwind angle, but the trade-off is that beach starts are no problem and the board seems more stable off the wind.

[Leo Chan]

10-15 mph seems to be pretty gusty too from looking at wind meters.

15 mph wind plus formula board and 9.0 sail = pure joy! just make sure you do a lot of workout at the gym to get your arms and legs as strong as possible before you try it.

[Leo Chan]

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It is a lot of effort to get it going due to the large fin and heavier tail. Combining with the large rig and you usually can't beach start that darn thing in Utah lakes, you have a nightmare to get the sail up before the massive work needed to get it going.

So true, especially the part about beach starts. Especially for vertically challenged individuals like me. But I have stumbled upon a solution. Back in March, before DC was as full as it is now, weeds and floating debris were a big problem at Charleston Bridge. So I switched to my trusty 17" (43cm) Weed Blade, with the intention of switching back to a 62cm Formula fin once the week problem abated. Well, the weeds are mostly gone, but I'm still using the Weed Blade. I'm probably loosing a little bit of efficiency and upwind angle, but the trade-off is that beach starts are no problem and the board seems more stable off the wind.

The shallow fin (44 cm) by Starboard also works well for me. Yeah, you do loss a bit of upwind potential. But the shallow fin also has less potential to cause cuts to your legs.

[JimSouthwick]

One final thought (well, probably not, considering how this thread is growing) on using big sails: unless you are big and very strong, do your back a favor and get an Easy-Uphaul ( http://www.isthmussailboards.com/prodin ... mber=CH612 )
9+ m^2 sails are very heavy and can be a real bear to uphaul.

[Leo Chan]

One final thought (well, probably not, considering how this thread is growing) on using big sails: unless you are big and very strong, do your back a favor and get an Easy-Uphaul ( http://www.isthmussailboards.com/prodin ... mber=CH612 )
9+ m^2 sails are very heavy and can be a real bear to uphaul.

Good point. Actually, I would suggest that for any sail larger than 7.5, you should rig it with an easy uphaul. You will save yourself lots of energy and have more fun. You can probably make one for yourself by attaching an extra line to a standard uphaul.

[Sarah Ranes]

I have to disagree with Leo, just a bit. I had no problem beach starting my formula board, even with a 70 cm upright fin. You do have to get in deeper water, for me it was about waist deep, but then hop on and go. I never had any issues with it. I sailed most of the lakes here in Utah at some point, and it never was an issue for me.
Also I considered my formula board one of the easiest to get planning, especially if you are in the sweet spot of wind speed of say 12 to 15. If the wind is really light, say 10, and I'm not that good at pumping, then it was a bit of work, but it is on any rig, in my opinion. formula boards give you a lot of leverage, because of the width, to control the huge fin, and big sail. The footstraps are placed way out on the edge, and bit strange to get into at first, but as you get going, you have more control over the big fin.
Not that I'm suggesting that you get a formula board, but they do offer some advantages, and some disadvantages. You will experience things on that type of rig, that you won't on any other rig. and there will be times that you are the only one able to plane at all. It still comes down to what type of sailing that you want to do. Don't be afraid to try it, if it's interesting to you. I had lot's of people try to talk me out of formula gear, but I'm still glad I did, I learned alot and became a better windsurfer, for it.
One other interesting thing....I went the fastest speeds, that I have done, on my formula gear. that's what the gps tells me anyway. I don't consider myself that fast of a WS, but with my saililng style, I went the fastest on formula gear. Probably do to the fact that I was is really flat smooth water, @ Piute Res, and the wind was perfect conditions for me, and the formula gear. but I've never been able to match it, even on my small gear in the Gorge.

[Josh Shirley]

As far as fin length, if you go with a big sail you need a big racing fin. The last thing you want is spin out with a huge sail/board. Small gear spin outs are no big deal easy to fix.

Also cutting your legs with your fin. Probably not going to happen with a big fin, more likely to get hurt falling on a short fin.
For me at least I don't try water starting with a big sail. I think it is a waste of time and energy. Too much sail to clear out of the water, and typically the sail has a huge sleeve that holds a ton of water, which takes a lot of energy to clear.
Just because you can water start doesn't mean you should.

I wonder if what we are talking about is completely different than what Shawn was getting at.

[Leo Chan]

I have to disagree with Leo, just a bit. I had no problem beach starting my formula board, even with a 70 cm upright fin. You do have to get in deeper water, for me it was about waist deep, but then hop on and go. I never had any issues with it.

Sarah, Jim and I are more "vertically challenged" than you are. Jim is a bit shorter than me. But I have really short legs. I can water start formula gear, as long as my head is above the water. That's the thing I miss most about sailing in east coast. The bays there usually are waist to shoulder deep at least a mile out the shore. On a east or west direction, I can sail 6 to 10 miles in one direction and back. A few rides and I am done for the day.

Josh, I think we're trying to get Shawn into formula gears. Actually, if we have enough formula gears around, we can start a racing class here.

[Carl Christensen]

aluminum booms are okay up to a point. i couldn't bear to look back at mine when i was sailing-too much deformity powered on 9.0 (chinook) but it never failed. probably just a matter of time though. that was 4-5 years ago and the aluminum designs have probably improved since. carbon has been stiffer at the larger sizes, 9.0 and up, with much less deformation. my feeling is that good carbon should last a long time.

btw, with any sail i ride, 3.7 to 12.5, (and probably more 12.5 than most folks here), i am happy to water start if the wind is there to support it. in a water start the wind should do the work. if it cannot i will uphaul. when the wind pulls a 12.5 out of the water it's really the same as pulling a 3.7 out, you're not holding it up, it's holding you up. correct position remains the issue. indeed, it's a great way start my 12.5 if the conditions are there.

uphauling is the same. the wind needs to help do the work. in that way, if necessary, you are able to uphaul with no uphaul rope by pulling up the mast by hand. this is a bit harder but can come in handy. ask Dmitri. i had an uphaul fail at DC a couple seasons ago and he was there to offer line to jury rig something but we didn't need it-the 12.5 came right up and we rallied on for the rest of the session. don't mistake this for a recommendation just realize that you can uphaul or waterstart your 8.5. duck jibes are another subject.

[Carl Christensen]

ps Sarah, I'm impressed, but not completely surprised by your GPS speeds on formula. How fast did you go?

[JimSouthwick]

"btw, with any sail i ride, 3.7 to 12.5, (and probably more 12.5 than most folks here), i am happy to water start if the wind is there to support it. in a water start the wind should do the work."

True, big sails (at least those without huge luff sleeves) are actually quite easy to waterstart, once you get them out of the water, which is the hard part for many sailors, especially those who aren't particularly good at treading water. Sticking the tail of the board under the booms is a time-honored method of raising the rig, but is sometimes not possible unless the booms are rigged very low and/or the base is all the way forward. In his DVD on waterstarting, Charles Dasher suggests grabbing a back footstrap with your clue hand and resting the boom on your forearm, i.e. using your forearm as a sort of extension of the tail. An easier (if less popular) solution is to wear some sort of PFD, which makes it possible to raise even quite large sails with no treading water and without the use of the tail of the board.